Complicated People

Todd Henry00:00:37

It's another sunny day at corporate hq. You stride through the sleek glass doors, your security badge swinging in a practiced arc toward the reader.The familiar beep grants your entry to the corporate labyrinth you call your second home. Your first stop, as always, is the break room. And thank goodness for this company's enduring redeeming quality. They never skimp on the coffee.Liquid Courage Armed with your steaming cup of motivation, you navigate to your desk, the gentle hum of fluorescent lights overhead a constant companion. Your laptop whirs to life. You click into your email and that's when you see it. A novel length email from a colleague.The subject line Apologies Daily Target not achieved. As was busy writing the goodbye email. It's addressed to your co managers from a teammate.You read it twice and you take another sip of your coffee before continuing A few highlights. It was not pleasurable for me at all to work with you. Another one you decided to cross all limits as a manager.A good manager is a people's manager, and you are definitely not one.Finally, working with you was like let's just say that there was a completely inappropriate reference in this part of the email that I'm not going to read. It goes on and on and you can't believe what you're reading.It's like this colleague has cataloged every grievance they've ever had over the past few years and they finally unleashed it in a torrent of vengeance toward the company. But it's actually not all bad.Surprisingly, there are some encouraging words for you and for a few other colleagues telling managers that they should learn from them. You can be one of them. The colleague signs off that they are grateful to be free from a toxic manager's control and exhorts, take care everyone.Be safe, enjoy your weekends off. And of course, enjoy your life. Now this story might sound familiar because it's actually true.A few years ago, this resignation email went viral after an employee hit send on what could only be described as a digital declaration of war against their manager. And let's be honest, who hasn't daydreamed about having their own Jerry Maguire moment?You know that cinematic scene where you finally tell everyone what you think, dramatically exit the building and ride off into the sunset to a better future.The fantasy is tempting, but the reality is often messy and can have long term lasting consequences on your career and your professional relationships. While toxic workplace environments and difficult managers are very real challenges, the question Is revenge really the answer?Is there a healthier, more constructive way to handle workplace conflicts and complicated people? Today we're diving deep into this question with two extraordinary guests.Brian Leake, a leadership expert and executive coach, is going to share insights on managing workplace relationships and navigating difficult people.And James Kimmel, a specialist in conflict resolution, is going to help us understand the psychology of revenge and offer some practical alternatives for handling workplace grievance.Together, they'll help us explore how to transform those revenge fantasies into opportunities for growth, learning, and positive change without burning bridges or compromising our professional integrity. This is Daily Creative, a podcast for leaders and creative pros who want to be brave, focused, and brilliant every day. My name is Todd Henry.Welcome to the show.

James Kimmel00:04:12

So what we did is we did a deep dive into how people are navigating complicated people in the workforce and tried to get even a comprehensive definition of complicated from our participants. And it's interesting. Some people, when we asked them to define complicated, some people said, they are really dumb.I'm like, that's not an academic definition. Another person wrote, Leslie. I said, who's Leslie and what did she do to you? And another person wrote, nate.And I said, guys, I don't think you understand the question. They said, no. Nate and Leslie are the personification of complicated.And so what we learned in our research is that complicated is actually in the eye of the beholder.

Todd Henry00:04:49

That's Ryan Leake. He's the author of a new book called how to Work with Complicated People.

James Kimmel00:04:54

In other words, somebody that might be complicated to Todd might be very simple for Ryan to work with. Yet there could be somebody that I find very complicated to Todd's man. I love working with this person every single day.And so what that means is because it's a moving target. It means that any one of us can be considered a complicated person any day of the week.

Todd Henry00:05:14

And that's an interesting insight that I picked up from Ryan's book. I think when we think about working with complicated people, we think, oh, that's so and so. That's the other person.That's the person I have to collaborate with. Why are they so complicated without realizing that maybe that person thinks the exact same thing about you.

James Kimmel00:05:33

When we start with that whole idea of being able to say, hey, I'm complicated, you're complicated, we're all complicated. I actually think we can work together a whole lot better.

Todd Henry00:05:41

Now, to be clear, some people are obviously more complicated than others. And in fact, Ryan says that maybe there are some people who we just simply can't work with. That's why the subtitle of his book.

James Kimmel00:05:53

Is Strategies for Effective Collaboration with nearly anyone. We say nearly because some people are certified crazy and you can't work with everybody.But can you become the kind of person that says, man, I can work with almost anyone.Because what we learned in our research is that when it comes to job satisfaction, it had way less to do with people's job description and more to do with the people they actually had to do the job with. So people can actually pull off a really difficult job with people they enjoy over a dream job with people that they actually have to tolerate.And so I think it's vitally important that a person says, man, this can actually be a superpower for me. If I can learn to work with almost anyone, then I can, I can almost work anywhere. Because now it's, I'm not dependent on is this a job that I like?But no, now I've developed the people skills to be able to say, you know what? I. I've learned how to work under multiple different kinds of leadership styles.I don't know, some people say I work best with just this specific leadership style. I hope you get that leadership style. But what are you going to do if you don't?You actually don't have a whole lot of control over that, but you do have a whole lot of control over how well you develop yourself and how much you grow.

Todd Henry00:07:06

So let's talk about some of the strategies because I do think that one of the things that I picked up from your book is the realization that sometimes we think other people are complicated, but it's actually our preferences or the way that we're wired that's making the situation complicated.

James Kimmel00:07:20

Right?

Todd Henry00:07:21

It's what we're bringing to the situation that's actually complicating. They are complicated, but so are we.So how do we begin to identify where those lines might be drawn between what they're doing and what we're bringing our expectations to help us be a better collaborator in those situations.

James Kimmel00:07:38

Research shows that you work bend anywhere from if you've got your atypical job and you've got that job for your life, for your working life, you could spend upwards of 85, 000 hours with somebody that's more than your family. Your family's not going to get 85, 000 hours from you, but this person that you might deem complicated might.And so what we've lost the art of doing, which is part of the impetus for writing the book, is I think we've lost the art of talking to one another and actually having intelligent, vulnerable, authentic conversations. To be able to. Be able to just say, hey, here's the deal. I just want to address the elephant in the room. I just want to say this out loud.I want to have a thriving working relationship with you. I want this to. I want us to be able to work well. And I just want to re. I just want to. To say it out loud that sometimes it's not that way. And I just.I want to be able to address the fact that maybe there's something that I'm consistently doing that's causing a rub for you until. Can we talk about what it would look like for us to have a thriving working relationship?Doesn't mean we're going to be best friends, doesn't mean we're going to go to each other's birthday parties. But could it mean that we're able to get a job done at a very high level without stepping on each other's toes?And is there some things that I could come to an understanding with about you?What happens for a lot of us whenever we are dealing with somebody that's complicated or somebody that's creative or somebody that is emotionally driven is sometimes they come across in a way that they did not mean.But what we will often do is we will fill in the blank for a lot of people's intentions around their behavior, but give ourselves a whole lot of grace to say, man, I had a whole lot going on during that day, and. And I didn't mean it that way, but we'll hold somebody else to the letter of the law. So I just think it's vitally important.One of the core strategies in this book is this idea of, I want to move towards this person, not away from this person. And so instead of sweeping things under the rug, I'm encouraging people to say, man, no, go.Go have the conversation and be able to own your part and not just come in with an accusatory communication style, but being able to come to them with some vulnerability to be able to go, man, I realize that I haven't always gotten it right. Am I? Emails aren't perfect and my communication isn't perfect, but here's what I. Here's what I want you to know.I'm trying, and I think we give a whole lot more grace to people when they're going, hey, I'm. I'm doing the best that I can, and I want this to work.And if there's something that you see that I can't see, I'm open to that and want to be able to have that conversation. And we might say some things that hurt each other's feelings.But on the other side of that very difficult conversation, I believe there can be a thriving working relationship.

Todd Henry00:10:29

One of the things I say with my clients in front of groups is, listen, I want to give you permission that you don't have to like everyone you work with. You don't. And you know what? Also, you don't have to be liked by everyone you work with. You don't.But you have to learn to work together and you have to respect one another and you have to figure out how to contribute in a way that makes it a positive, collaborative work environment. But I do think that there's a misunderstanding sometimes, that if I don't like someone, there's a problem.And again, to be clear, ideally we would like everybody we work with. But just the reality is, you think about just the number of people in the world.We're not going to like everyone, but we can work with, like you said, almost anyone.

James Kimmel00:11:13

Dude, I love what you said. Like, just even that line, I just. I had to write it down really fast.This idea that you and I can retire, reduce misunderstandings is one of one of the most powerful things you can do as a co worker, as a boss, as a contract worker is to be able to reduce misunderstandings.

Todd Henry00:11:39

So what about the almost part of how to work with almost everybody? Ryan has some tips for what to do when the complications are just too much to bear.

James Kimmel00:11:49

I reference another book in my book called Necessary Endings by Henry Cloud. And sometimes that is exactly what needs to happen. Unfortunately, here's what I believe.I believe sometimes we call it quits just a little bit too soon. We cut ourselves short of growth we could have gotten if we would have done the work to try and repair that relationship.I think the only way that you can truly repair a relationship is if two people are trying to do the work. But what I encourage people to do is this idea of, did you do your part to the best of your ability?And I think most of the time the answer to that question is actually no. They say, I've tried everything. And then I give them 10 things they could have done. Like, well, I didn't do that.I'm like, you say you tried everything. I don't think you gave the effort that you think you gave. I think for you to be able to stretch yourself to say, this person is stretching me.He's making me just challenging me to think differently and think outside of the box and is making me grow. And I gotta go read a whole book just to figure out how to work with this person. But at the end of that, you get better.And so even if they don't, it takes two to tango. Even if they don't want to dance, it doesn't mean you can't learn to dance. And then there can come a point where you say, hey, you know what?I've done the best of my ability. If you can truly rest your head, to really be able to say, I did everything in my power to make this relationship work.At that point, I think you throw your hands in the air and go, hey, almost everyone.

Todd Henry00:13:31

Ryan Leakes new book, how to Work with Complicated People, is available now anywhere books are sold. And you can listen to our full interview at DailyCreative app. All around us are complicated people.And sometimes those complicated people can make us feel, well, complicated. What do we do when we have a desire to lash out? What do we do when we have a desire to fire off that resignation email? Just a minute.We're going to have a conversation with James Kimmel about the science of revenge, why we feel the urge to retaliate, and what we can do to maybe curb that impulse and have a more constructive way of dealing with our feelings. We'll be back with that conversation in just a minute. Stick around.

James Kimmel00:14:42

I'm a lecturer in psychiatry and violence, revenge and forgiveness, researcher at the Yale School of Medicine. Before that, I was a lawyer, and that's my training as an attorney.

Todd Henry00:14:53

That's James Kimmel. He's the author of a new book called the Science of Revenge. The science, yeah.

James Kimmel00:15:00

The central idea comes out of neuroscience studies over the last 20 years that have now made it pretty clear that your brain on revenge looks like your brain on drugs, pretty literally.The way that it works at the neuroscience level and at the human power on every bit of our relational levels is this when you feel a grievance, which is to say any form of mistreatment or shame, humiliation, victimization of any sort, insults, betrayals, all those things that operates instantly on a part of your brain called the anterior insula, which is the brain's pain network. So it's really hitting you as serious pain. And that's the area of the brain that activates when you're in pain.But your brain doesn't like pain, and it wants pain to stop and it wants to rebalance itself and get off of that heightened state of pain and back to a more pleasurable state. And that's when the next part of your brain, the pleasure and reward circuitry that activates for addiction activates.And those are two areas called the nucleus accumbens and the dorsal striatum.These are the pleasure, craving, and habit formation centers of the brain that activate for substance use addictions, Gambling addictions, Other behavioral addictions like eating or sex addictions, or any of those types of behavioral addictions. The last piece of the puzzle here is that revenge desires are natural, and all people get them.We think that they were an adaptive strategy that we created in 11,000 years ago, maybe during the ice age, maybe earlier than that.But when you get it and you're unable to control it, the executive function, prefrontal area of your brain gets deactivated or hijacked, which is what happens during addiction, Then you can move into an addictive state, which is to say revenge. Addiction is that cause, and that's what it looks like at the neurobiological level.

Todd Henry00:17:09

So James argues that not only do we experience A desire for revenge or retribution when we're wronged, Whether that's in the workplace or elsewhere, but we can actually become, well, addicted to seeking revenge, to righting wrongs, and to correcting what we deem to be unfair behavior. It's almost like we become addicted to grievance. Just like with any addiction, if left unchecked, it can have significant detrimental effects.

James Kimmel00:17:35

So with revenge, we might think, I don't have a lot of negative consequences if I retaliate against my spouse or my significant other. Let's say, if it's particularly if it's not a violent form. And you might think that, but it's really not true.So what researchers have found is that when you retaliate, which is to say you punish or inflict pain upon someone who you believe has wronged you or their proxy, you don't get off free, ever. You end up feeling worse but potentially wanting more in the addictive state.And you feel the worse in the sense that a lot of people who do engage in an act of retaliation Feel more angry after than before.They feel greater levels of anxiety, which could be in part because most of us know that if, you know, our act of just retaliation or justice in the form of revenge Is for the victim or the target of that act, an unjust action, in other words, a new grievance for them. And that creates the revenge cycle. So we're spinning that around.So we know that if we avenge, we could easily become the target of a retaliatory act again. So we're on edge for that. You can also think about it this way.You can't become the instrument of someone else's pain without experiencing the pain you're inflicting yourself. And the way to illustrate that maybe is to think about a hammer striking a nail. And we usually go, oh, poor nail getting driven into that wood.It's just getting pounded mercilessly. But we often don't think about the hammer, which is striking the nail and cannot avoid the impact of every one of those blows.The hammer is getting just as much pain as the nail is getting. And that's how it is for humans who are who become avengers.

Todd Henry00:19:17

So how do we handle when we feel aggrieved? Well, James says the science shows us that there are some practical things we can do to deal with our grievance instead of seeking retribution.

James Kimmel00:19:27

Yeah, there's really good news in the neuroscience on the solution side of this. So it's not we've been talking only about the problem of revenge addiction, which is relatively recently discovered.But here's the most powerful thing that any listener can do.So the neuroscience has shown that, believe it or not, forgiveness, and I'm going to explain an alternate view of what most people think of forgiveness is. But forgiveness is the best thing that you can do at the neurological level to make yourself feel better.So when I talk about forgiveness here, I'm talking about internal forgiveness. You don't have to tell your boss in this case that you're going to forgive what they've done.You don't have to have any conversation with them about it whatsoever. It turns out that forgiveness is a self healing, like wonder drug that we kind of humanity has overlooked for a long time.Even though it has been taught the ancient teachings on forgiveness, it turns out we now have neuroscience evidence proves that they were correct, like people like Jesus and the Buddha. So here's what happens when you just imagine quietly to yourself without sharing it with anyone else. I'm going to forgive this grievance.Here's what goes on inside your brain.So the first thing is that pain network that I was telling you about, the anterior insula that activated when you first became victimized or felt that you were treated unjustly. That area of the brain shuts down. In other words, the pain actually goes away.Instead of being covered up the way it does for the dopamine hit of revenge seeking. Forgiveness actually dials down and reduces pain, like taking a Tylenol, only in many ways way more powerful.Secondly, it also deactivates that pleasure and reward circuitry.It shuts them down so that you're no longer plagued and nagged and bothered by all these revenge fantasies and thinking about how can I get back at my boss? Should I do it? Starting to feel worried and scared about it, but never being able to like, let it go.It's stuck in the past and when we're talking about revenge, we're always talking about trying to punish someone for wrongs of the past.And then the last thing that it does, it's been shown in brain scans is to reactivate that prefrontal cortex, executive function and self control circuitry. So you're now able to make good decisions again, which are usually going to be not retaliating against your boss.Because even though it would feel so great in the moment to screw your boss in this next project, you're probably screwing your career up because now you're going to be viewed as a failed employee and nobody wants that person around.

Todd Henry00:22:14

James Kimmel's new book is called the Science of Revenge. Fascinating. I was riveted reading this book. It's available now wherever books are sold.And if you'd like the full interviews with Ryan Leake, James Kimmel, or any of our guests, you can get them at DailyCreative app. Just go there, enter your name and email and we'll give you access to full interviews. Hey, thanks so much for listening. My name is Todd Henry.You can find my books, my speaking, and all of my work@todhenry.com if you want to support the show, please go grab one of my books. I have seven of them. I think you're going to find them helpful. Until next time, may you be brave, focused and brilliant.